Changes to NHS plans – what do you think?

Just a cosmetic exercise to make us think they have changed the Bill but not much change there are still conflicts of interest (Doctors and nurses who supply medical care and GPs who commission it on same panels). Competition also remains and could create a 2 tier system (one for the rich and one for the poor) and there will still be a postcode lottery not a NATIONAL health service

It needs scrapping full stop. This whole rewriting thing is a load of sheep dip. Competition and introduction of private companies is wrong. From what I understand GPs who have started consortia are spending more time doing admin than treating patients. I was actually shocked to find out Labour first had the idea of increasing private companies use in the NHS. The whole thing is terrible. Its treason!
 

Listening is one thing – taking heed and acting upon it something else entirely. Not holding my breath!

Another thing that’s happening is the lifting of the limit on the amount of private patients foundation hospitals can treat. This will mean NHS patients having to wait longer while beds are taken up by paying patients as the hospitals go all out for profit. 

I simply cannot trust this government at all. I think that they and their powerful wealthy friends will use all possible means to enable privatisation by the back door, whilst making empty promises to those opposed to them. Tories do not have listening abilities, they are, frankly, too thick. We need Ed Miliband to sound a lot angrier and more convincing for people to really believe that Labour is still the defender of the NHS they founded. There is polite and reasoned – and there is powerful  passion which rouses emotions. Certainty and strong rhetoric is missing at the top right now. I know that speeches delivered with passion are often regarded with suspicion, and the person speaking accused of being “a false actor”, but the NHS is desperately in need of the strong feelings amongst the public and the NHS employees being reflected in the words and actions of our politicians.
Come on. Ed ! Defeat the tories completely on this issue, or Labour, and followers of great movements like 38 degrees ,will lose faith in our democracy.

I don’t trust them at all I think it’s a smoke screen and we need to be very vigilant and continue to make our voices heard.  The government should not be pushing ahead with radical change at a time when it can least be afforded and spending £2 billion at this time is ludicrous.  The coalition will press on with back door privatisation and I do not believe that the NHS is in safe hands!  Diane Edmonds  

Dont trust them.. Cameron Clegg and lansley are in this together.. clegg not concerned about the lib dems either,JUST getting himself in the EU parliament.. Dont trust them..
they may have listened BUT not heard.. Its their way still just they will re word the nhs reform to suit them.
keep it up 38 degrees AND public..  dont let them con you all. listen to their words?
One man mentioned on the wright stuff.. the economy will collapse within 18mths. And V.cable will try to take over? Of course his opinion..BUT he also mentioned Clegg only interested in moving to the EU..and he’s in cahoots with cameron NOT fighting for change as he professes.

YES! I heard NEW labour started this also,. they brought in PCT and MANAGERS .. Blair sold us out?
They dont care neither did Blair, he’s a millionaire now and the working class public well?? very poor most..This whole thing stinks.. AL the government have just filled their pockets they havent worked for the public,JUST themselves. Its all about them.. WE/PUBLIC have no say.. they decided on common market  EU etc. we/public only vote them in BUT for many yrs now we’ve all had our heads buried and letb them do what they want with us and to us.
We need to make a stand OR they will privatise EVERYTHING in the UK.. soon the EU will own us,I bet there’s not much left in the UK that actually belongs to UK.many hospitals,though they still have the NHS logo( a con in my opinion) are owned BY private company’s mostly foreigners..

Unless there are real changes to the proposals, we need to make our opposition known immediately. Contact Cameron, Clegg and/or Lansley straight away.
I am already receiving more promotional literature from private healthcare companies in the post. They can’t wait to get in!

It is a complete distraction blaming the ills of the NHS on managers and on the former labour government.  It is the government’s way of dividing and ruling and trying to gain the consent of the general population that gasps in horror whenever “faceless bureaucrats” are mentioned.  The fact is that health service managers have been working in the NHS for decades.  They include matrons, ward sisters, cleaning managers, theatre managers, hospital engineering managers, human resources managers in addition to the contract managers, service managers and quality managers that the public seem to despise so much.  The truth is the NHS is used to reforming and the government could have introduced these reforms without this legislation and avoided spending the £millions in the consultation and “listening exercise”.  Their carefully worded statements suggest to me that some of the changes will still be introduced quietly by the back door when they think they have won us over and we are no longer watching.  Leopards do not change their spots. 

I do not trust Cameron and Lansley, since they still want to privatise the NHS

This massive upheaval  was never flagged up by either party and so neither has the country’s mandate to force this change on the voting public. 

This is an absolute whitewash and we shouldn’t let them off the hook. The report is clear- competition is important. 

They clearly want to privatise the NHS and nothing they have said today appears to change this – we need to keep up the fight to SAVE OUR NHS!

This Government has listened NOT, they have changes a few names around made a few empty promises and  think that we are going to take it on the chin, i think not this fight is not over until they throw this whole bill out, leave the NHS alone it isn’t for sale.

Yes Christine, I’ve noticed the same thing. Also that ‘health insurance’ is being pushed to many companies suddenly as the future method of assuring some sort of healthcare!

There is no mandate for these changes to the NHS. The Tories hate the NHS with a passion and this is the beginning of the end for universal health care if we don’t fight it. 

It seems the vocab has changed more than the bill

I am a member of a campaign group Defend Our NHS which from the publication of the White Paper last July has fought to have the bill scrapped. The reason the Health and Social Care bill is not now on the statute book is because of the opposition of all of us.
We must not stop now. The public debate about our precious NHS is healthy and vital to its future. We must keep telling our MPs what we want. There is no mandate for this bill. The “changes” are to fob us off although they are playing a part in focusing on the important issues.
We need to keep saying we want a joined- up NHS not in private hands, keep issuing the warnings that private health care companies can and do fail – Southern Cross, Castlebeck and Circle to name 3 from these last few days - and basically not to give up.
We’ve done brilliantly so far – well done 38 degrees – ! Keep campaigning!

the whole nhs needs full renationionalising. there should not be outsourcing, its wasteful, expensive and they dont do a good job.

The con dems are looking to cut 20 billion from the NHS over 4 years Only an idiot would believe that cuts of that magnitude. would lead to an improved service With the costs of new treatments and procedures. higher energy costs ect. when did doctors and nurses suddenly become admin and recourcing gurus. it was only a couple of weeks ago that the report came out about hospital doctors having to prescribe water for patients becuase the nursing staff were to thick to work out that elderly patients need to water.   

I want the Government to discuss openly – to include all patients on the NHS – to include all those who are addicted to prescribed benzodiazepines, becaurse these 1.5 million patients are EXCLUDED and have been for decades from recieving the poper treatment they so desperately need to come off their drugs safely. We have campagined for decades for these many ill patients to be INCLUDED in the NHS too receive treatment to come off these mind bending drugs, but all to no avail. See http://www.benzo.org.uk

Apparently the Lib Dems were going around parliament yesterday holding up score cards. This was  to indicate the points they felt they had won over the Conservative party as far as this report was concerned. How can we trust any government that includes such childish people, to have the future of OUR NHS at heart. So sad that they do not have the maturity to look at the report from the point of view of provision to the public, rather than a football to score points with.
Perhaps we should remind all the MPs about this, that it is the health and treatment of the public that is important, not point scoring.
Also Dougthain, the prescribing of water for patients is because it is cheaper to employ people with NVQs to look after the elderly, not nurses. Howver hospitals call people with NVQs “Nurse” – so you have no idea that the people looking after your relatives are unqualified.  A level 1 NVQ studies such things as how to answer a telephone, and nothing about Nursing Care. However these people are let loose on the public using the name Nurse. Maybe this is something we should campaign to be included with this bill. That the name labels of so called nursing staff, indicate their level of training. e.g. NVQ level 1, Miss Jones, Registered Nurse Miss Jones. Then we can see if the Trust/GPs practice etc are passing off unqualified low paid people as Nurses onto the public.

Thank you 38 degreees you do a fantastic job raising awareness and giving us a voice. The core principles of the NHS must be upheld. I have taught for 40 years and unfortunately upon retirement find myself with a chronic/acute illness due to a virus not lifestyle.I have been very impressed with the care I have received so far from the NHS.  How would I ever be able to get private healthcare, not a chance!!!  So if the NHS is privatised what will happen to people like me, who have paid into the system all their working life!? Health and education should be equal and fair! 

so what is going to happen to all the private health companies who have donated to the Tories and the the money?  will that be paid back?  and what about the huge govt contracts? will they be ripped up?  will the companies be compensated?

Agree Sylvia but not privatisation by the back door most  definitely and blatantly by the main front door!!!!  We can see it so we must do something about it. I think the people must be the voice as you are quite right Ed too polite and not defending the faith!!! Cameron and Clegg in cahoots and wrapped up in their own ambitions which is quite ugly from this distance and sadly  could destroy the only national treasure we have left!
Suzi

If they donated money, then they have no right to have it returned. The money was given of their own free will. As for any contracts, there should have been no contracts awarded on the strength of this bill, as it hasn’t yet been passed into law. So there are no grounds for compensation either.

They will claim they have listened to placate the public, but  they have only tinkered around the edges. The ideological plan is still to open up the NHS to private companies and create a two tier health system. Private companies are about profit not care and compassion and we have seen recently evidence of what can happen to private companies!(Southern cross) What will happen then will the Government have to bail them out or ‘remove’ patients from their hospital beds and/or close vital clinical services? Neurology patients at my local hospital already have a round trip of  well over 120 miles to receive diagnosis and  treatment and most of them are seriously  ill, this is a Private Finance Investment hospital that has major debts so that really worked didn’t it!? We still need to be very concerned, Pubic health not private wealth is our motto!!!!!

At the moment that won’t be a bad thing. Private patients are treated in separate wards, so they don’t compete with NHS patients. And hospitals don’t make profits – they have no shareholders to pay, so any excess income goes into the running of the hospital. This is actually beneficial for NHS patients, because private patients can pay for swanky rooms and food, while the ‘profit’ is then put into better hospital facilities for everyone. So it’s a good way of getting rich people to pay more and help the rest of us.

I fear they are claiming to have listened but have only tinkered around the edges. The idealogical plan is still to open up the NHS to private companies and create a two tier health care system. We have recent evidence of what can happen to private companies (Southern cross) what will happen then will the Government have to ‘bail’ them out,or ‘remove’ patients from their hospital beds or close vital clinical services!?  Seriously ill patients at one local hospital have a round trip of well over 120 miles a very remote and long journey,  to receive diagnosis and treatment, this is because of the massive  debts incurred by a Private Finance Investment (Blair) hospital, so that really worked didn’t it!? What patient choice do they have?
 Our motto must be public health not private wealth! 

This is why we should be worried – currently ranked 2 in the world, with the lowest cost health service. Under Cameron and Lansley’s plans we will be moving towards the US – ranked 7, and with the most expensive service – where will the extra money come from? Not from government, they can’t afford it. So we as individuals will have to pay through private medical insurance, just like the Americans.

Is this correct Victoria? Do the private patients not pay the private companies who make a fat profit?  How do the hospitals get  a share of this profit? It is an interesting concept if it is correct and not one I had thought of. On the other hand would private patients therefore be prioritised over NHS to make such a profit?

My main concern is back-door privatisation. The Tories will bang on about this until they get it thro’. We must stop them. They have no idea what the NHS as it stands means to us ordinary folk and they really don’t care. Cameron’s worried expressions have been perfected in front of a mirror and he pretends to hold it dear but they are all greedy, devious, selfish blighters. More big ads in the papers….more hassle in the letters columns…..more Johann Hari stuff from the Independent. Don’t stop fighting now. 

Don’t care about private companies. It’s immoral to make money out of people’s sickness and disease. They are as greedy as the Tories who invited them in.

Those private companies have invested heavily  they will want something in return..

We have to continue with this campaign.  We must not accept a compromise and we will not have the wool pulled over our eyes. They intend to move at a slower pace towards privatisation. Their announcements amount to political drama. However, we have to hold our collective breath until we see the amended document. If it contains any ambiguities, we will have to demand clarification in black and white.

Well said. Clegg is just another Tory. I can’t understand why sensible LibDems like Shirley Williams can support him. He’s rich and privately educated why should he care about those of us who aren’t?

Totally in agreement. Ed must stand up and shout louder….come on Ed we have faith in you!

Private patients skip waiting lists, take NHS-trained doctors away from NHS patients and so increase the time we have to wait for the service we pay into…..immoral. Private doctors are greedy and just want to increase their own wages. They are paid huge sums by the NHS and never need to boost their money by going outside the NHS. The new system will encourage greedy GPs to make as much money as they can via private practice….Aaaaagh!

C’mon 38 degrees…..more pressure…..more ads…

Watched Judge Judy last night wherein a man had a nervous facial twitch and his solution was to get drunk to ease/stop it! When asked by Judge Judy why he was’nt on medication for it instead of getting drunk quote ”I CANNOT AFFORD IT” unquote …… reply by the Judge was “In this country we do have agencies who would help you”…….even she could’nt look the man in the eye!!!  All very well if the man lived in the city – how would he get on if he lived in the sticks??

Anyone know what is intended with all the National Insurance Contributions we all pay…this includes for welfare and health. Obviously it won’t be stopped but why would we want to contribute to a ‘privatised’ health care system.

good question…where has all the NI contributions gone?…are we going to be to shop around for private health insurance or will the NHS become no more than a fund holder and not a provider?  and what about the Tory right wing who are against any amendments to the ‘reforms’  will they rebel? 
(why are they called reforms btw? when its obvious they arent to anyones good ..except private companies bank accounts)..

The Future Forum report does NOT make ANY assurances that there will remain a Duty on the Secretary of State (or anyone else) to PROVIDE medical services.

People have been confused about the “Duty to PROMOTE a comprehensive health service”. The “promote” clause (weak) is being kept. The “provide” clause (strong and specific) is still due to be abolished. It is in Section 3(1) of the original Act.

Whatever your views on WHO should provide healthcare, or HOW MUCH it should cost, the removal of the 1946 duty-to-provide services is MASSIVE and is not understood. It could therefore slip in without people noticing.

Public interest lawyer Peter Roderick has clarified the legal points here http://www.dutytoprovide.net.

should be mandatory for secretary of state for health to PROVIDE not ‘promote’  far to loose a definition..why have they changed it? (silly question i know)..ps anyone know who brought down the AfterAtos site..er anyone asked anyone in power that question..enquiry??

Private patients in NHS hospitals pay the hospital, either directly or via private health insurance. The private companies act in the same way as any other insurance company. They make profits off the individuals who take out health insurance plans, but the costs of the treatment etc go to the hospital for the room/food/nursing etc, and some to the treating doctor.

Private patients aren’t prioritised, because they have their own wards with their own nurses. The doctors involved will be the private consultants (non-consultants aren’t allowed to practice privately).

Private hospitals (like BUPA) are different. None of that money ever gets to benefit NHS patients.

I live in the UK but i am currently in Spain visiting my sick father. He has private health insurance. It scares me to think that we are facing the same in the UK (and in Spain there is an NHS equivalent). My father is afraid to go back to public health in the middle of his treatment, which i understand. However, this is what i see this private healthcare provider do:
Move my dad from hospital to hospital (over 50 miles away sometimes) as different private hospitals provide differen treatments, some treatments denied until family kicks up a fuss and threaten court action and bad publicity, failure to send an ambulance when needed it as a matter of life or death ( ended up calling public ambulance and hen fight over who pays for it). I could go on… In short, i am witnessing first hand how private healthcare providers put profits ahead of patients.
We must fight tooth and nail to avoid this from happening in the UK. It is no a matter of negotiating a commitment. There is no middle ground here. Once we allow it to start, there will be no stopping it. Some Dr friends of mine tell me that it has already started but they are not allowed to discuss publicly.

Do whatever it takes to reverse this now. It is a pretty scary altenative. Believe me.

The NHS will become like Medicaid/Medicare in the US. It will pay for healthcare for certain groups e.g. over 65′s, and people on benefits – but the care will be provided by a mix of NHS and private hospitals. The NHS ones might be compelled to provide, but for the private hospitals it will be voluntary. So they will only do it if they can make money. Gradually the number of NHS providers will decrease as they are taken over by the private sector.

Also Medicaid/medicare don’t cover everything and are not totally free – people still have to pay some health insurance. And this will likely be the case with the NHS in future.

I think someone in your situation would still get NHS treatment, because you are retired. What would change is that, after a honeymoon period, private hospitals will start to restrict the services they offer for patients with chronic illness. They will want to focus on the quick fixes, where they can make the most money. So after initially getting ‘patient choice’, people will find that certain services, hospitals and specialists aren’t available on the NHS.

I think we should now keep them on the back foot. There never was a case or mandate for a Health Service Bill anyway, and any changes would only apply, rather unfairly, to England. The Coalition government should drop this silly bill and work with the healthcare professionals to continue to improve standards in our hospitals and quality care in our local communities served by GP’s consortia. We need patients’ panels to replace the work of CHC’s for the consumer and an end to post-code lotteries within the regions.

It has already started, the most obvious being the Independent Sector Treatment Centres. They do the most straight forward surgical procedures, and are currently guaranteed a certain level of income, regardless of how much work they actually do.

The theory is that they are much more efficient and innovative than the NHS providers, and so patients will be queuing up to use them. In reality, any efficiency is due to them doing the simple work, while innovation come from being handed a virtual blank cheque to build whatever impressive facilities they like, because GPs have been ordered to refer patients to them.

Another enormous concern is this daft idea of “patient choice”. How can we be expected to choose between providers unless we have the time, inclination and skills to investigate all of them? Surely this is what health care professionals should be doing on our behalf. We should be able to put our trust in these very well paid GPs and other professionals to make the right choices for our care, without reference to financial accountability. It’s all very well having choice if it’s “informed choice”. We could be influenced by all the unimportant stuff like posh clinics and single rooms when the skills of the surgeon might be unreliable. Quite a scary prospect. Keep fighting the changes. We can’t let these ConDems win this all important battle. I hope Ed M is listening.

Thank you Victoria. Yes understand what you mean about quick fixes, chronic illness is expensive,  so a little disconcerting to say the least and patient choice will be non existent as I feared!

My apologies for the typing error in this it should of course say public. I dont know how to rectify the mistake or indeed delete the comment, can someone tell me how to do it?

Joe, The devil is in the detail!  Thank goodness there are people like you to clarify.
 

 Inform public that are now Consultant grade GPs, not by years in service but by education.  Have a TV programme properly explaining the whole thing .. not just soundbites and anti people.  Inform of NHS looonng list of diseases that should be modified; … aside comment .. there is much in NHS that can be, should be, reduced or improved that is nil to do with private. The modern, currant health worker is lost in the morass of care the NHS thinks it should give and in their fuddle enable downgrading of civil behaviour, never mind cost to country on several counts.

 To fritter away money on repeated, undisciplined STDs, drunks > 15 years later ALD is not in the genuine sick person’s interest and we must face this and make it clear to our politicians and Health Professionals, – you can tell a drunk they are a mess, tell a teenager with 3rd STD their habits will not be paid for by the taxpayer any longer but that they must pay for treatment – by this time the young person is probably already sterile courtesy of infections and morally we have mistreated them by allowing them to think all is fine, the NHS is here to pick you up.nnThis is a mere drop compared to what needs facing in our mis-managed, misused, staff mis-trained and under-trained etc etc – please allow authority, as in discipline, to re-enter; discuss constructively with government what we should retain and what to put to other methods/practice to keep the core of what our NHS was made for.

If you do not amend what is, then you will continue on any reform to fail. If correct the suggested then you have a stouter base of care and staff confidence in the NHS and themselves on which to reform – it is much needed, please get it right.

Yes Sadie and very well stated. I’m sure your comments are exactly what we need for the basis of discussions leading to the construction of a real working plan. It is a great shame that we have all become divided into political and the usual personal comments and rhetoric which is most unhelpful when attempting to develop a useful long term future for this great service, the NHS. Unfortunately, we don’t actually know the full story of what the government is planning but something needs to be done in all aspects…which means a thoroughly good overhaul of the service, to our ultimate benefit…in real terms! Certainly, there also needs to be a review of the waste of time, effort and costs caused by the abuse of the service from self destructive patients, not that it is my place to venture as to how this can be achieved without alienation of the people involved.

As you also said, we must keep the core of the NHS…this is its heart, and like any other patient needing care – it must be protected!